Episode 8: Colton Korn • Relationships Still Matter

Colton Korn, the Director of Player Personnel at Liberty University, joins Luke & the Moneyballers podcast to discuss Liberty's approach to the new era of roster management--rev-share, NIL, transfer portal--emphasizing that recruiting still matters. He emphasizes the importance of building relationships with players, the challenges of navigating financial aspects, and the need for a strategic approach to recruitment. Korn also highlights the significance of maintaining a healthy work-life balance for Personnel staffs.

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Our Takeaways

• Building relationships with players and their families is still crucial for retention.

• Investing in high school players can lead to long-term success for programs like Liberty.

Success metrics in college football are evolving beyond just winning games.

• Financial forecasting is essential for roster construction and player retention.

• Culture within a program still matters--it can significantly impact player retention and success.

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Full Transcript

Luke Bogus (01:02)
Colton Korn, DPP at Liberty. Dude, thanks for joining me. How's it going, man?

Colton Korn (01:06)
Good man, how you doing Luke?

Luke Bogus

Doing great. Appreciate you responding to the DM and I'm very excited to talk to you because I found you through Twitter, because you're pretty active on Twitter, and you tweeted something the other day that I was like, I gotta talk to him. I think you said, "cool thing about all this rev-share stuff. nobody knows what their plan is good right now and we probably won't for a few years, but that being said, I love our plan.

Luke Bogus (01:26)
that we've developed and how we're choosing to build this roster." So, like this whole entire episode, like kind of the first episode that we've recorded where it's like kind of post a lot of this stuff happening. I think a lot of our episodes in season one were like preparing for this new world. You've been in this new world. So lots of questions to dive into. I'm really excited. But I guess like maybe opening monologue to you about that tweet, like what inspired you to rip a tweet like that?

Colton Korn (01:41)
Absolutely,

Yeah, I mean, you see so many numbers being thrown out on Twitter and social media and you got guys in your roster. They're saying, man, that guy's getting mad. And so many people are seeing fake numbers being thrown out and it's cool. It's awesome. You know, power to the player and all that kind of stuff, but also navigating what's actually being thrown out there. Is it a deal where this is what this kid's really getting or

Is it hypothetical making money? You know, is it a, he's going to get this and if he does this, he gets this and this bonus structure that's not supposed to be in these contracts and all that kind of stuff. It's super interesting because everyone's got an idea of how this thing's going to work and how it's going to turn. And then three months later, it changes and in a year it changes and none of it really matters. So it's just super interesting. you'll see guys making X amount of dollars on Twitter and then

You really meet the kid and so run me through your contract and that kind of stuff. And it was, a third of what was actually being reported or there's so many caveats and what we're going to make and all this kind of stuff. So, it's just super interesting. And then, to kind of add onto that is, how are people going to build their rosters? Are they going to start from, you know, high school guys? Are they going to focus more on portal and how are you going to invest in your roster? And I just think it's super interesting. We're at a time where

I like to think this is what like the beginning of the NFL looked like with their payroll was how are you going to build your team? Are you going to spend this percentage on your quarterback and then this on your O-line and this on your D-line and this on your corners? Everyone's going to be doing it different and there's no right or wrong answer right now. We'll have a right or wrong answer here in the next few years or after the season or how you built it. So, it's just always funny seeing those numbers go out and then there's this is a guaranteed amount.

College football, I hate to tell you, zero guarantees on those contracts for the most part. That was the main part.

Luke Bogus (03:29)
Zero guarantees in college football in general. ⁓ it always seems too good to be true. Yeah. I mean, you highlighted it too. Like you won't know the fruits of your labor for many years. It's always been that way. You know, take a bet on talent and like look forward and see one three years how they develop. But like, it's just a whole new way to think about it. And what's interesting is that you you've been in it kind of pre and post that world. I'd love to talk about your thoughts on how

Colton Korn (03:32)
in general.

Luke Bogus (03:52)
your role specifically or just broader, the DPP role has really evolved in this world of we're just going to recruit and do whatever it takes to recruit them to now like recruiting them means also having a competitive financial package to come along with it. has your philosophy changed? Has your approach changed? It may walk me through kind of evolution for you and your role.

Colton Korn (04:10)
Absolutely. So we don't have a GM currently at Liberty. So, when this new kind of era came along with the contracts and roster slots and positions and price per position type thing, me, Coach Chadwell and a couple of the guys over here were trying to figure out how are we going to invest in, how are we going to build this program and what is going to be our focus? So, obviously I think a lot of people say it, but we're going to invest in the high school player.

We want guys that want to be here. And if that takes a little extra money out of high school guys or freshmen, which is it's always going to be a risk. Every freshman is a risk to to extend except Jeremiah Smith. But every every every freshman's a risk. You don't know what's going to happen. There's no magic ball. You know, Magic 8 ball. This guy is going to be a three time all conference or this guy's not going to play for you at all. And you're celebrating when you get them. There's a super guessing game. But we believe

that you can retain guys. You build that relationship with the player, the parent. They come here as a freshman. They have guys on the team they're tight with. We've been very successful everywhere we've been. that feeling of I'm successful with the people I came in with. My parents love coming to the games. My family loves coming to the games. That's where we're going to start. And if we can keep a guy instead of two years for three years because we got him out of high school and he loves it here, that's a win. If we have a guy that

leaves after two years because he gets bought from us, then that's probably a win too because there's a reason he's getting bought. But we really want to focus on building it from that freshman class. And so what positions are the most important? We kind of got a base thing going with our freshmen and we feel really good about it and excited about it. where do you have to be leaning at?

Liberty is a little bit of a different place to recruit to. It's a Christian university. It's the biggest Christian university in the world. And we're not in a big city by any means. So, what do you got to do to get a receiver that runs a 10, 6, and 100 meter? Maybe they don't necessarily want to live in Lynchburg, but how do we make it more appealing? We got offensive linemen. Well, we got places to hunt and fish. That's a great spot. But also,

We're not necessarily in the most fertile ground for all these positions. So how are we going to get them here? How are we going to make the place attractive? And that comes with the financial side. And then, hey, we got a bunch of really good young D linemen. Maybe this class, kind of, we go light, we go light with what

looking for because that portal is going to be there. It's always going to be there. let's not stretch or let's take the local guy that's going to stick around.

Those are the kind of dynamics of everything that's going around that you got to look at and you always had to an extent but also now with the financial piece to it it's Every year you're somewhat remaking that roster. So what's gonna have you in the best situation if you need to add transfers after the season. How can you save up money for after the season? We don't have a huge budget just sitting out there

We do a great job with the rev-share. So, we need to keep some of that internal revenue money for after the season to go get those portal guys and build that way. don't just take a guy just to fill a roster spot. If you need three defense alignment and you got one you feel really good about, you get them and then you got those two spots. Well, let's save that money.

And then let's wait and see what's out there because there's always going to be that five star freshman that didn't pan out at wherever or a guy that is from Virginia said, you know what, I want to go try it out on the West coast or go somewhere and wants to come back home and you better have a roster spot for him. Cause no matter how much money you got, if there's not a roster spot, it doesn't matter. I think that's been the fun addition to it. You're still looking for the best players. You're looking for the best people, but

Where can we get guys that'll stay longer, that want to be a part of Liberty, that want to be a part of what we're trying to build and generally want to be here because the money's going to be there. And at the G5 level for the most part, we're probably on the higher end, but everyone's somewhat similar. So what are you really selling? What are you trying to get? What are you trying to develop? And then what are you trying to get in the portal? What's your focus there? Because you're going to take 10 to 15 guys in the portal every year, especially the G5, because you're going to get picked apart. If you're a good team, you're going to get picked

especially in the trenches. If you have good skill, they're going to get picked and hopefully you've built a good enough culture where maybe you keep one or two guys longer than you should have. And if you do that, it's a win. It's always going to be a win. I remember my favorite example is early in the transfer report, we had Josiah Stewart at Coastal Carolina. He was undersized, wasn't super highly accrued out of mass, came in.

Just 6', 6'1" guy, really good edge rusher. We had him for two years. Had a shoulder issue, but should have left, should have left. could have left, could have went anywhere, stuck around because we were there for another year and ends up going to Michigan, gets drafted by the Chargers. The relationship kept that guy there for an extra year. The team kept that guy for another year. And again, that's pre- rev-share, but still it's the same mindset. if you can get guys around people, they enjoy being around, it makes it a lot harder to leave.

I want to be around this staff as long as possible because I love the dudes I work with. More money can be offered, but man, it's got to be a good situation, pretty comparable. those are the puzzle pieces and it's a never ending puzzle and there's no right wrong way to do it until you look at the record at the end of season and all right, we did it right. Let's do it all over again.

Luke Bogus (09:07)
I love the fresh perspective of what like success is in that world. every single team in D1, the playing field was like launch pad into the pros, the pros being NFL and like not to put words in your mouth, but like what I'm hearing is kind of like a launch pad into a high profile P4 team is also considered a success. And so it's like, kind of understanding what success can mean and being really good at the level that you are at. Like that is one way to dominate. my, my paraphrasing that correctly or.

Colton Korn (09:36)
It's perfect. ⁓ know, realistically, the guys that you're going to have go pro from from your school are going to be guys that somehow do it in three years because there's no point in really leaving before then transfer you take a one year transfer that comes down and this way should have been all along and blows up or guys that are just kind of love the place. But realistically, the high school guys you get, they can be super raw and maybe they blow up for one year and then they get drafted off that.

But your draft picks are rarely going to come from your high school guys at this point. And so if we bring guys in that the big 10 are sliding into the DMs during the season or, know, Pac-12 teams texting midway through the season or you're in a bowl game in Arizona and the team you're playing against is, hey, come meet us for a bite to eat, you know. That's success. You brought in talented players and as frustrating it is, you know, it's not the olden days of

of college football where you got guys for four to five years. Realistically, you got guys, it's really a one year lease. But if you keep a kid for three years and he plays a lot of significant football for you, you better be hoping if you're bringing the right guys that they're making tough choices, whether it's to stay and maybe take a little bit less or go and cash out now and figure it out because you're just not getting a kid to come here.

as a 17, 18 year old blow up, become the guy and G5 football is not covered like P4 football. It isn't. your video game hype is going to be a lot different. your rating on college football is going to be different. You know, we had a guy leave us this year go SEC off and he's rated 90. If he was still at Liberty, probably would have been an 83, the same player. so that's always going to be enticing and I would love it if

All your high school kids came in and stayed four to five years, but realistically, you're not going to keep all of them either. And that's the nature of college football too, where, hey, it's going to be best if you go to the FCS, it's going to be best if you go D2 and maybe they get a better shot there. So it's a give and take, but this idea of man, homegrown NFL talent, like the Sauce Gardner at Cincinnati for his entire career, even they'll have trouble doing that at this point.

There's so much money out there and all these guys aren't in the same situation. Not everybody comes from a great household where, I don't got to send money back home. I don't got to do this. You know, we got guys on our team paying rent for their parents or for their grandma or, making the car payment for them. So it's just so many different situations out there where if you're expecting to keep a kid for his entire career, you better hope they're not really that good early because they're going to be really, really popular.

Luke Bogus (11:58)
that like brings into perspective to a lot of the new demands that the new personnel department has in this new day and age. It used to just be like ability to watch film and identify talent when they are very young and keep them and hoard the talent and then hopefully that they're big. And to your point now, every single year you're building a new roster because there's temptations in the portal.

what are the skillsets that you feel like you've had to develop or that you kind of see peers in your industry has developed to kind of morph from being the goaded film watcher to being the goaded film watcher. And also think about roster construction, do financial planning, think about the X's and O's and analytics beyond that. maybe walk me through what skills you've had to develop to kind of keep pace.

Colton Korn (12:31)
Yeah.

Yeah,

I think one of the most important thing when the transfer portal first started being a thing was the communication aspect of it. Obviously that's a part of recruiting, but also developing a relationship where this guy goes to the P4 right down the street and in two years he's not playing as much as you want. Hey, man, I'd love to get over there or his high school coach reaches out. He's not having a great time. Like that relationship carries.

And that's really what you're building a relationship with in high school. You know, if they're coming to you or they're going to somewhere else, you're hoping, hey, on the back end, this guy's going to want to come here because he's developed a great relationship with us. So think that was the first thing that really became obviously talking to the guys that you're targeting, but also, hey, maybe this guy blew up. Hey, every once in while, send them a message. Hey, saw your game this week and you went nuts. Great job. Hey, the guy down at Grayson high school, you know, like these powerhouses that send out 15 guys a year.

Um, Hey, great job this weekend, man. Or, you know, I'll see a quarterback. I got sent out on the road, uh, the last, uh, few months. And I see a quarterback that's going to Penn state or something like that. Hey dude, you crush it. Hey, I know we, we don't got a shot at you right now, but Hey, if anything happens, don't be afraid to hit my line, man. It was great seeing you. Yada, yada, yada. And every once in a while checking back in, you're not getting them. You're not getting them at this point, but

It's the new world of on the back end. Maybe that will matter. So I think that's important. And then just kind of what we touched on earlier is and what I was talking with our recruiting coordinator on the offensive side of the ball. His name is Nik Kostarelos. We're talking about offensive lineman. So he was an offensive line GA last year and talking about, hey, we don't have to just stretch for guys. If the talent's not there right now.

You don't have to take the guy that's not there yet just because you have four spots. Because we are investing in these guys. Like there is a financial investment on every single player. And so are you willing to spend some money on a guy that might not be ready three years? I don't know. 'Cause that kid can leave just as well as the guy that's really good. They can say, you know what? I'm still not even cracking the two deep. I'm out of here. So, you know, holding off and realizing

you do have different times of the year to pick up players. And then just understanding the money can't be the only thing, right? For some guys, there's a different way to recruit every player. And for some guys, money is the really important thing. And realistically, we haven't had success with that guy. We haven't had success with that guy as a player or recruiting them because we truly believe that there has to be some kind of relationship, but there are guys that want a relationship, but also need to hear about the money part. And

Keeping as many people out of the money conversation as we can is important. Just because, you guys all build a relationship, we'll handle the money conversation when it comes. But get this guy fired up about this place. Get the juice going and realizing at the end of the day, don't stretch to take a player. Because I think five years ago, I got three receiver spots. I'm taking three high school receivers.

Luke Bogus (15:24)
Exactly.

Colton Korn (15:24)
It's just

not, 'cause you're going to lose somebody too, right? You're going to lose at least one or two guys. So, but now that there's a dollar value for every single player, every single roster spot that turns into something where you better have money when the time comes and you see the guy that you really want the, kid that pops at the end of, at the end of the senior season that usually is going to, you know, the firmans are really good FCS program. Hey, we can go back down and get those guys.

man, we just got to steal and we wouldn't have if we would have taken X, Y, and Z though, it's just not ready that we are stretching to take in the first place. So I think that's been a lot of the education side of just remembering you're not always communicating for right now. I think that's a big thing. And then also remembering there's a dollar value on every single player on every single roster spot. And it's completely different than it's ever been. And what we value that spot could be completely different in 12 months. And it's a continue

evolution of what's going happen and making sure when it comes time, you better be able to take care of your roster because your stars are going to get called every single one of them. If they're a starter for a good football team, I think we won 21 games last two years. We're pretty good football program. We do it again. There's going to be guys getting called. So you better be able to take care of them at least decently. you're not going to be able to match some of these schools. they got four times what you got, but

Can you make it worthwhile to the point where, you know what, I'm not leaving this, this is too good. And maybe get that extra year like we talked about, so.

Luke Bogus (16:43)
Yeah.

that's such a point. in the past, the goal was just hoard talent, hoard talent. But now it's A, you obviously have the roster limits component, so you can't do that. But then B, there is a cost to development. I think that's something you said that I think is really poignant. what's really interesting though, given all those new considerations, and that's just one example, there's hundreds of examples like that. When it comes to roster construction, you mentioned that Liberty doesn't have a GM by title.

What's your take on every single team out there seems to be hiring a GM. Everyone's rebranding the personnel department to be the front office. You seem to be operating a really like high octane without a GM by title in the building. maybe walk me through as GM, is it a titled role? Is it something that you feel like as a collective that like you and a bunch of folks in the building are playing?

Colton Korn (17:21)
Yeah.

I think how we have it operating here at Liberty right now, and again, that we could hire GM in the next month and maybe I'm it, maybe somebody already on staff, maybe we bring somebody in. It's more of a role where you call Joe Smith on Friday, great long snapper out of South Carolina, hey, want to shoot you an offer? Hey, I just got an offer from the GM. So there's some prestige that comes with it, right? But also,

I think it was something I kind of mentioned earlier is you don't want everybody on your staff talking about money. You don't want your receiver coach getting into any of your position coach, your D-line coach. You want their conversation to be about football because I'm not having a technique conversation. You know, I played college football, played receiver. I don't want to talk technique about receiver. Hey, you got that. Build that relationship, build the relationship with the family. You know, we're doing that as well on the recruiting staff. But I think that GM.

or whoever's having those conversations, I think it's important that it's very concise. And so you're not having people, coach, I think we need to get to this amount to get this guy or to keep this guy. Well, you don't know what the other 10, 11 positions look like. So having somebody that's looking at that stuff, I think that's very important. I think the title brings a lot of prestige and there's a lot of big time names in it that have been doing this for a while, you know, like.

Ohio State Pantoni, James Blanchard, but was before he had the GM title. He was still legit, right? You know, like so I think all these names Courtney Morgan at Alabama like all these guys have been doing this and doing very similar stuff. But now they're trying to get under one umbrella and hey, who's going to talk to that that agent who's going to talk to that kids agent? Yeah, we're going to send them to the GM because I'll tell you what I not a lot of head coaches are looking forward to talking to high school football player agents

or juniors that have not played at all agents. But it's a part of it. So where does that conversation go? I will say what we do here, I handle a lot of those agent conversations. We have some coaches that are fine with taking those calls and all that, but we have a really good system going. Our director recruiting, Devon Doyle, he does a great job. A lot of the behind the scenes stuff, where a lot of directors are recruiting have been elevated into that GM or chief of staff type role

and the director of player personnel, director of scouting, whatever you want to call it, kind of formulate more into that GM. And then some people have a GM chief of staff. again, it's just, I think titles are cool. They're great. You know, you got a director title, but there's 18 directors

staff right now. So what's it really mean? I think in our recruiting department, have director recruiting, director of on-campus, director of player personnel, director of player relations and portal recruiting.

and director of recruiting, communication and strategy. So who's the director there? You know what I mean? Who's directing? No one's going in, but we have a really good system of, hey, you're leading the communication, how you want this done. Devon's making sure we are compliant with everything we do and really keeping our relationship with on campus really well. We have two recruiting coordinators, one for each side of the ball. And hey, what's our plan? What holes do we need to fill?

Luke Bogus (19:56)
Who's directing?

Colton Korn (20:15)
You know, we're all evaluating because you can never have enough people watching guys And whether it's a little bit organized chaos or not You're still getting guys watched and getting them seen by our position coaches and lessening their work because that's the most important thing I think in our recruiting department is less than the work of the the ten dudes in those offices are trying to win games Tell them hey, I got ten guys for today. Let's watch them. Let's knock it out this week and let's get rolling so I think I think we have we have a good system here where

We are building. It's kind of, I'm sure there's going to be a GM at some point. but realistically you're operating so much with on campus. We're going to have like a, I think it's a teamwork GM where they're over all the sports and our basketball team has one and stuff like that. So, you just gotta have a relationship with those guys on campus and we're all developing that with what we do. So it's going to be kind of a natural thing. And so we don't technically have one and you know, there'll be a day when it comes and it happens, but

we just continue to operate like, Hey, maybe there's 10, there's future GMs in here. Like those guys I mentioned, like no one wants to be, the number two, nobody's looking to be, I'm the little man on the totem pole. Everyone's trying to work their way up. that's the hot new thing right now. I'm the general manager. Sweet. Awesome. What's that mean? And, and I think what we're starting to realize is everybody's GM is completely different where Courtney Morgan's going to snatch up kids and

Luke Bogus (21:16)
Exactly. ⁓

Colton Korn (21:34)
Hey, I need you to get to meetings. You're late for a meeting, calling an agent, let them know what's going on. Or, Jordan Sorrells at Clemson, he's stockpiling talent and he's great leader and super knowledgeable and been doing it for a while. These guys, their roles are not the same, I promise you that. They're the GM, but their roles are completely different. Your G5 GM is not operating the same as your P4 GM. It's just completely different all around. And you need everybody in the building pulling the same direction. And if it's not happening anyway,

then you're bad GM. You know what I mean? Jim Nagy, down being a GM now. You know what he's doing? He's evaluating. He's putting price on a player and that's his role. I doubt he's doing similar things to what they're doing at Fama, Texas Tech, Clemson. It's all different. So it's a cool title and it's the new buzzword and it's the gadget right now.

But at end of the day, as long as your whole group of people, we got seven, if our seven people are pulling the same direction, whoever's got the title, it really doesn't change much because if you're not delegating, you're behind, you're struggling. So we got a good thing going. And one day there'll be somebody sitting there with a general manager tag in here and you know, thank you, general manager. And then I'm going to go do my stuff. You know what I mean? So it's just, it's an interesting time. And that's the, that's the new buzzword.

What's it look like in the next year? What's the consistency across all those positions? Nobody knows, but we'll sure find out. We'll find out here soon.

Luke Bogus (22:50)
Yeah.

And you highlight well too that you don't need the title in the building to operate like a real front office. It sounds like from an operations perspective, it's there. It's just nobody has that nice title and maybe the nice paycheck that comes along with it. But we're getting there. Aren't they? Aren't they?

Colton Korn (23:03)
Some of those P4 ones are special, huh? Goodness. No point making

it to the NFL now, just becoming a college GM. You're set. You're good to go.

Luke Bogus (23:12)
That's right. That's right.

The last question I have for you though is you just mentioned, you spent July going on some vacations with your fiance. Do you get away from football at all in the season? do you have any sense of I get two hours to do something fun on the weekdays in the midst of October?

Colton Korn (23:27)
I'll say this. I work for very family oriented head coach. I know a lot of people say that and all that kind of stuff. Our schedule is very friendly, especially to the recruiting staff because as soon as the off season starts, our season starts. So in season, he does a great job of, we don't need to be here at 6.30 for that first film session, you know, and we don't need to be here for the last film session

or stuff like that. he does a really good job of letting us have our lives. And like I said before, you know, I got engaged in December. And if we're not, if I'm not going home and watching Love Island at the end of the day, or going and buying a bottle of wine and watching The Bachelor. hey, something, something's wrong, you know, you're missing the whole point.

especially in recruiting, there's always something you can be doing and coaching as well, but especially in recruiting, there's always guys you can be watching. And the cool thing is they're going to be there tomorrow.

I'd love to sit here and say, no one's ever got by me before. I've never missed an eval. You're going to. So, I think there's become this hyper fixation. And again, this came over kind of social media world of this team's not doing a good job recruiting, like they're recruiting ranking. We've improved it every single year and there's been times I've been like, what, what are they seeing? I hope these guys are right about it. it's just, it's one of those things where people get so caught up in

all this stuff that doesn't necessarily translate to, I need to be in the office till midnight. That used to be like a badge of honor,

so I think our head coach, coach Chad, what does a really good job of making sure we have a well-rounded life

there's a general understanding at this place ⁓ with this head coach- that I've, you know, he's one of the only guys I've worked for where

there's other things that are important. And if that stuff starts to deteriorate, I don't care if you're in the office because you've, you're going to fail in here if you're failing out there and you're not able to put time into it.

Luke Bogus (25:10)
like awesome culture and dude, this was an awesome conversation. I really appreciate your time Colton. Thanks for the insights.

Colton Korn (25:15)
Absolutely, hey, strike the stone baby, go flames.

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